Apps for smart trainer

[Chris1982]

@app4g hey man, very cool to speak to you direct!

Don’t want to take much of your time, but any super short comment on

1 - Trainer Calibration

2 - Accuracy / “robustness” / “depth” [sorry, unsure of proper terms] of the power communication / data recording

3 - Ease / speed of use / whatever to DL the WOs from .icu and execute

in BreakAway vs TD ?

[No worries, I will just trust that your comments are 100% honest. While you obvi have a bias, this is an open community, and not rly any motivation for you to be dishonest! ]

BreakAway all cool w a Saris M2 ?

[Ha ha, very funny… yes, M2, asking about accuracy. It’s +/- 2- 3% for $400 vs +/- 1-2% for $ 1000 - 3000. Def good enough for me! ]

EDIT: Ok, yes, now after installing and 90% of the way through setup & integration w .icu , I do have two more questions:

1 - Where can we find the searchable help / support online? I can’t find any website other than wordpress. Or a forum, maybe?

2 - How can I just freeride on the trainer for 60 min in BreakAway in resistance mode, no specific power targets? I love doing my long threshold WOs this way.

[Gleb_Turlakov]

I definitely can recommend Vinapp, it´s free and you may find it in Google Play. There are different language to use it without problem with lot of plans and nice and informative training interface. I have been using it since 2021.

[Ben]

do you have a cycle computer? just use that, especially now it works with wahoo

otherwise flux mentioned above is great, no sign up or download required.

zwift offline if you’re a bit more tech savvy is great too and could use dropbox to sync workouts

[Chris1982]

@Ben thanks for the comment! No, no bike computer; run it on iPhone.

Sorry, what do you mean “flux mentioned above” ? I didn’t see flux.

[Nik_Om_Cinderella_Ri]

Apps for smart trainer

It’s a nice app but no direct interfacing to intervals. Might be easy to setup with Dropbox though. Not guarantied to work on iOS and limited to certain browsers

This is flux. Web based.

[app4g]

Trainer Calibration

• There’s no built in calibration in the app. While it’s not difficult to implement, given that a lot of trainers don’t follow the specs to dot, this is better left to the official app. (Besides, on my own trainer, I hardly if ever do calibration. I live in a hot country if that matters)

2. Accuracy/robustness/depth

• I’m not entirely sure what you mean. BreakAway, like other apps will get the data as it’s output by the trainer/powermeter/sensors. Every second, it updates into the screen and writes to the FIT file

3. intervals.icu integration

• BreakAway is very integrated with Intervals.icu. You just need to “pull to refresh” the workouts in the LIBRARY tab once you’ve authenticated w/ Intervals.icu. You can also sync your workout library along w/ the workout of the day. Completed workouts can sync to Strava/Garmin/Intervals/RideWGps/Apple Health and if you use the built in Intervals.icu “Week in Review”

If you do edits within BreakAway, some changes (name / RPE / Desc / Feel) gets sync’ed back to Garmin & Strava as well. So 1 edit will populate to 3 sites.

You mentioned you don’t have a Bike computer, Next release will add outdoor workout support for BreakAway.

Saris M2 - TBH, I have no idea. YOu’ve got to test it out. Since BreakAway don’t require login/signups, I really don’t have consolidated data on these sort of things.

Help/Support - The website is the only available online presence currently. I’m actively here and there’s loads of threads on specific features here

FreeRide in Resistance Mode - Unfortunately for FreeRide, you have to KILL the app each time to get it to Reset back to FreeRide. So eg: Start App, sensors gets connected automatically, swipe the START button UP, switch to RESIST, it will default to 2% IIRC then press start. Change the Resistance/Slope using +/- buttons.

BreakAway also supports Slope Based Structured workouts, so it’s hands free. ERG → RESIST or even HR, is all supported.

[Chris1982]

@app4g Thanks for your reply!

2 - Ya, sorry I don’t know enough about programming to ask what I want to properly.

What I am getting at is: After calibration, if during a ride, Trainer Road says I’m putting out 200 W, I know it is pretty damn accurate. Like there’s little to zero chance the software is reading off, and I am actually only putting out 183 W.

Know what I mean? Any comment?

On the M2, you said I will have to “test it out”. But without a secondary crank power meter, how can I test it out to know BreakAway and the trainer are working accurately together?

Or is that not what you meant, or there is some way to check within BreakAway if it is communicating correctly w the trainer?

[Nik_Om_Cinderella_Ri]

Did you have a bad experience with any other app that leads you to ask these questions?

Or are you using both a crank/pedal power and a trainer and thus need power matching? Power matching is more complicated and it tries to match (either increase or decrease) the trainer power target to be sure it’s the same as your power pedal.

Eg:
Target power 200w.
Trainer Power 200w
Pedal Power 210w

PowerMatch will send (new) target power as 190w.

Calibration is not about trainer to app/headunit. It’s actually the internal trainer settings. Sort of like a “factory reset”.

Having said that, what your trainer outputs is what the app/head unit will report. It’s actually up to your trainer’s accuracy.

If your trainer says it’s outputting 200w, this will be the same data read by any head unit/app.

[app4g]

What i can tell you is that all apps will send the target power to the Trainer and it’s up to the trainer to hold that power.

Also, without a secondary power meter, you won’t be be able to verify that TR is doing what it says as well. GPLama actually recommends 3 power sources for verification.

The comment about M2 is with regards to whether it uses any of the established bluetooth protocols (FTMS/FEC/wahoo’s FEC). Some Older trainers uses proprietary connections.

[Chris1982]

@Nik_Om_Cinderella_Ri thanks for explaining that. No, don’t need power matching. Just accuracy.

I thought that if the trainer was saying 200 W, that it was possible for an app to get the incorrect value. (Is it truly impossible ? I mean….it’s all code…not possible for it to be off?? )

@app4g thanks for your time, and I am leaning heavily towards your app and am happy to buy the medals, contribute, etc. I would not be rudely wasting your time if I was just gonna go w another app!

I just want to clarify one thing: I never ride in “ERG” / whatever, where I have the trainer set the resistance at 150 W, and I just have to pedal away. In Trainer Road, they my ride mode “Standard Mode” ; mimics the exponential resistance of a fluid trainer and just reads the power I am outputting. I have to hit the power targets by adjusting gearing and cadence.

What would that mode / setting be in your app?

And so free riding, if just want to do a 60 min open threshold ride w no targets, am I understanding you right that you open the app, don’t load any WO, just put it in the setting you tell me, and click start, and just rip, and it will record everything and feed it back to .icu?

[app4g]

@Chris1982

Is it truly impossible ? I mean….it’s all code…not possible for it to be off??

Well… Anythings is possible right? That’s the ironman tagline after all. Having said that, I myself am using Trainer and Pedal PMs and others has not feedback to me that they’re seeing the numbers being incorrect.

But you’re saying you’re wanting to do SLOPE/RESIST mode, in that case, none of what you’re concerned about should actually really matter as there isn’t a target wattage to be sent to the trainer. The trainer will do it’s own internal thing to set it at X% Resistance/Slope and your power output is the power output. Do note that some trainers can be inconsistent as they’re not using strain gauges but some optical sensor/translations etc.

For your Use case, you can Use SLOPE / Resist Mode.

SLOPE in Free Ride mode, you can set it at X% SLOPE and then you control your effort and targets via cadence and gearing and do what you described.

[Chris1982]

@app4g Yep yep, roger on all!!

Ya, I get you that the app isn’t sending the resistance to the trainer in my case.

But the trainer is saying “ok he is putting out 154 W right now.” Just wanted to ask about any possibility the app would incorrectly “read the signal” or code or whatever and record “ok he is putting out 175 W right now.” at that time.

I really appreciate your info. I’m going to dive fully into BreakAway and save TD only if I find an issue w BA.

Could you let me know the diff btwn Slope and Resist modes? And is the resistance curve linear or exponential on either ?

[app4g]

@Chris1982

Just wanted to ask about any possibility the app would incorrectly “read the signal” or code or whatever and record “ok he is putting out 175 W right now.” at that time

You’re asking possibility, then there’s always going to be possibilities. Same with TD/TR and others.

Slope and Resist mode are the same internally (in BreakAway). We send a Command to the trainer for it to mimic a 2% (or any % that you input) and then the trainer will react accordingly like climbing a hill.

Resistance, in trainer speak, is trainer internally controlled resistance where 100% = max resistance of the trainer capability.

[MedTechCD]

@Chris1982

Just wanted to ask about any possibility the app would incorrectly “read the signal” or code or whatever and record “ok he is putting out 175 W right now.

That’s like saying: “I step on the weight scale, I read 75kg but i note 80Kg in my notebook”. Sounds a bit silly… It’s not the app that reads the sensor, It’s the trainer firmware. And that data stream is forwarded to the app and/or recording device.
So the trainer firmware ‘display’s’ a wattage number and the app takes note of it.
Any inconsistency at this point is normally solely due to the trainer. Depending on type of trainer, like direct-drive or wheel-on, the value can be way off or almost spot-on. But you would only know if you have a trustable device to measure against, like most on-bike Power meters. For your personal training, this is not of much importance because all tough a lot of trainers are not accurate, most of them are consistent and will always show improvement. For comparison with other people, you should only use results from real power meters and even then, it is important to know what type of power meter. Measuring power on the rear wheel hub is not the same as measuring power on the pedals. These are are at the rear or the front of the driving train and can be 15-20W off.

[Chris1982]

Well, I mean, not really, right? Your example of me reading 75 kg and writing 80 in a notebook is actually “a bit silly”.

I understand what you’re saying. Trainer is reading out 172 W, so app is just reading and recording that number.

But that is all code. And there are many, many steps. App to trainer reading / talking to each other, app recording it, storing & saving that number then somewhere within the program, simultaneously displaying that correct number on screen within the app real-time during the workout, then later sending that saved number to .icu for analysis. And this happens over and over for every second of the ride (or whatever the read & record frequency is).

You’re talking about many, possibly dozens of “if ___ = ____ display X
…readout = W re: seconds output” blah blah blah.

If coding was as clean as single step, reading on a scale and writing in a notebook, as in your example, no program would ever malfunction or produce errors! This is why things happen like everything is fine, then Zwift releases a software update, and all of a sudden it can’t see your cadence sensor anymore. [Happens v rarely now…random & unexpected errors more common in the early days….of any program….……hence my asking about it all! ]

I mean, the app designer himself did say just above, that it is “always going to be a possibility”.

Anyhow. Diving in head first, as my only WO app to read my WOs from .icu and send results back.

At this point, I’m extremely optimistic it will go well.

I then plan to cancel TR and be using .icu & BreakAway as my only platform. Think it will work amazing!!!

[Nik_Om_Cinderella_Ri]

The app designer is saying that every software (and that includes the human brain as well) has that possibility. (I bet they’re just saying that like a disclaimer of sorts)

You should get 2 other power meters and do the comparison to give yourself more confidence over the readings. It’s also possible your trainer isn’t accurate / consistent as well.

[Chris1982]

@Nik_Om_Cinderella_Ri LOL yeah, I’ll get right on that.

[Chris1982]

@app4g hey dude ran the first test ride last night. [Outdoor rides w no app & swims & life since we last talked.]

Love the display. Numbers are huge, unlike many others. [Why do they make the readout so hard to see?!? Yours is fantastic!!]

Super easy to see. Calibration in trainer’s app, and BA setup was fast and easy. Think I am going to love it!! But first ride didn’t go right, need your help:

I ran it in Resist mode, a .erg WO file created on .icu

BA is still controlling the target resistance. TR would call this “Erg mode” ; you set it at 175 W, and you just pedal. If you change your cadence from 90 to 100 RPM, BA adjusts, and keeps your output power at 175 W.

I want to be just pedaling, and I am controlling the W I output, with my gears & cadence, or adjusting + / - on the screen, and BA is just recording the power I output. I don’t want BA to keep it “locked” at a target power.

I am sorry; I feel I am not describing this clearly. Have re-written it three times now.

So I went to try it in Slope mode instead, but got an error;

“Workout File Error. For SLOPE Mode, only TCX/FIT/GPX file supported.”

I can get a new file from .icu, but if I want to ride as described above, which of these 3 should I get ?

[app4g]

@Chris1982

I ran it in Resist mode, a .erg WO file created on .icu

Can you show the workout you created? you say a .erg file? In BreakAway, Resist Mode is actually just Slope Mode where we’re sending a Gradient to the Trainer. (i didn’t implement Resist mode)

The main diff is that SLOPE mode is SLOPE simulation mode where you can ride GPX/TCX/FIT. Basically like Zwift, but you supply the outdoor route (to ride indoors)

I’m guessing that in your particular situation, you didn’t really do RESIST mode, you’re in “AUTO” mode (that’s basically workouts pulled from Intervals.icu).

If you were to change it to RESIST mode explicitly, you would see the green circled items at the top which defaults to 2% Slope. Did you have those? (you can change using the +/- buttons)

If you want to do a Slope Based Structured Workout without messing w/ the +/- buttons, you can see this thread. This is how you “hack” intervals.icu workout builder.

Slope Based Structured Workouts Now Supported (BreakAway: Indoor Training iOS)

I forgot to update this thread w/ the new method to do SLOPE/RESIST Based Structured Workouts. While the previous method can still be used, it’s a bit counterintuitive and what’s worst is that one can’t see the target power for that particular intervals. This has now been changed such that an automated ERG+RESIST workout will show the correct Workout Graphic and also change from ERG to RESIST mode automatically. This is how the workout graphic is shown in the app [IMG_4723] This is the cor…

If you want to ride like zwift, you can get any TCX/FIT/GPX files. you can even get some GPXs directly from Strava. eg:

Use this Strava link for Alps D Huez

Then grab the GPX

and save it to the Dropbox folder and it will sync to the App.
eg:

[Chris1982]

@app4g hey, thanks for replying.

Sorry, like just a pic of the WO, as below, or you want me to share a link to it? Not sure how to do that.

I want to ride the WO below as the target, but BA just recording what W I am putting out, not setting it & controlling it.