It would be appreciated if anyone can give some advice on the correct protocol/training to improve my Vo2 max and general fitness ( training for longevity). Garmin’s currently says my VO2max is 43.
I ride my road bike often and rate my health/fitness as good for my age of 58 yrs. I am 48 kgs and 157cm
Garmin watch recently recommended highest HR of 182 so my zones are set according to that figure.
I use Zwift for indoor training. Today I attempted 5x5 VO2 max intervals on Zwift, it was hard and the highest power output I could achieve was 137 and heart rate (HR) of 170 bpm. Although, when I do running intervals I can get my heart rate up to 177 bpm.
Garmin & Zwift rated today’s session as an effect of a “Threshold” training instead of VO2 max is this correct? If so, what do I need to change to get into VO2 max training effect?
I train 6 days a week by riding outdoors for 3 hours twice and indoors doing intervals and zone 2 once a week. I also include o1-2 running session on the treadmill as well as some strength training. I manage to do these sessions very early before work and on weekends which is hard.
Max HR for cycling and running are completely different, running being the higher.
I have found reaching Max HR impossible doing HIIT unless I warmup completely and only then after about an hour at the end of an very strenuous effort such as a FTP 20 minute test or very long hill climb at the end of a long ride when my HR and Power have completely disconnected and effort has not diminished even if power is well below VO2 max. Dr. David Seiler did a study to determine when different riders would see Max HR under a set of controlled parameters and the times ranged from under an hour to well over two hours. To get there I gather is different for everybody.
Studies have shown that it is the HR in VO2 max zone that will best improve VO2 max, not power or Max HR. I personally wouldn’t recommend trying to reach Max HR as a part of regular exercise. There’s no reason I know of anyway. Getting into VO2 Max zone and staying there is a trick that includes a warmup and shorter times between intervals. That may also include shorter intervals themselves such as 1 minute on with 30 seconds or 1 minute rest. There is a different goal here than hard efforts for longer durations with longer recovery periods which tax the quads, glutes, and hamstrings and allow the HR to drop. This increases FTP primarily. The goal is to ramp up the HR and keep it there for VO2 max targeted training.
Frankly, just getting in the exercise will lead to long term gains in all areas and that is definitely shown in all studies. Getting too bogged down in the details where one study of one method says will lead to “measurable” gains over another study of another method which also leads to “measurable” gains also is just confounding. Fitness will come over years and perhaps that is both the best and worse. There are no short fixes to counter years of neglect and there is every reason to stay with fitness regimens for the rest of our life we have left.
I was going to suggest this as well. 5x5 is a really hard workout. And you did pretty well on those first 4! Which suggests you did a pretty good job with the power target, maybe a bit high to not be able to do the 5th.
There’s nothing wrong with Nx3 or Nx2. It’s time in zone. Find a workout that you can hit and maintain your targets that is sustainable and doesn’t end up putting you in hole.
What is Garmin saying your FTP is? VO2 intervals are a bit of a weird one in that the goal is to get to maximal O2 consumption. You can do that by riding a hard steady pace for a while, or by ramping it up hard to spike your HR and then just doing what you can to finish but keeping your heart rate up. Or do more Tabata-style 30x30s or 40x20s. Sure in the lab there’s probably a ranking of which is “most optimal.” In the real world, “most optimal” is something you’ll actually do. I like Power to help me start the interval since HR is a lagging indicator, and it’s easy to go too hard at first.
I hate 5x5s. So I don’t do them, and find other combo’s I’ll actually, uh, “look forward to”.
Thank you, very informative reply.
I will experiment with shorter intervals , but as you said, at least I’m getting the benefit by trying and that’s what matter ( I just need to stop reading too many articles online)
I don’t know how you found Intervals.icu, but you came to the right place. There is a wealth of valuable information buried in this forum from experienced cyclists and coaches and from links or references to pertinent studies and experts of the day. Being informed makes sense of the purpose of our training plans and allow us to be flexible and try new approaches.
Our understanding of fitness has changed dramatically even recently. For me and I gather you, understanding what it is we are doing and why helps. Books are good, , don’t get me wrong, but they can’t have the latest takes on fitness and training. I never thought I would become a fan of podcasts or YouTube videos for starters, but there you have it. Hearing and listening to the days experts work their way through new and old data keeps the concepts fresh in my mind. Reviewing pertinent studies are also valuable…
Regardless what form our learning and training take, I try not to become too attached to a singular source or viewpoint. These bodies of ours cannot be easily quantified in an easy input-output model. Whether it’s a training schedule you planned for the week or month or season or an idea about training you thought you knew, keeping an open mind and being flexible has always been a good rule of thumb for me.
I gather you’ve been comparing yourself to others on your platforms. Impossible not to really. There are wattage and age charts sprinkled all over populated with widely differing samples.
They are good for knowing what is possible. That’s about it. As you move up, if you’re like me it’ll be a nice feeling, but I don’t get wrapped up in it. Obviously we can’t help but have the thought of comparing ourselves. Just ignore it.
It’s not a new idea to not compare our progress to others. There’s no value in that. Your journey will be yours alone. Let no one grade that.
I sort of missed a point you brought up. You said the Garmin suggested threshold training. What sort of training have you been doing the last 3 months? How many hours a week at what sort of power/HR zone? V02Max may be “overdoing” it so to speak, depending on what your goals are. If you are looking to raise your FTP, doing more Zone 2 and Tempo/Threshold work makes more sense. V02 Max is great when have really pushed up your FTP and are looking to continue moving it up, as well as increase your performance above FTP.
If your goals don’t include racing or really punchy type rides, spending more time at the lower intensities could be the way to go.
I found out about Intervals ICU while searching for a split heart training zones. I love Podcast and have been listening to Peter Attia who encourages intervals workouts.
I truly appreciate the wealth of knowledge available in the Intervals.icu community. I completely agree that staying informed and flexible in our training approaches is essential. I look forward to exploring the resources and engaging with everyone here.
Comparing my performance to others tend to help try train better and try harder. However, I agree with your point of view and I need to accept what my body can handle.
For the past 3-6 months I have been trining 6-9 hours per week or average of 7 hrs per week.
My goal is to improve my VO2 max, according to Garmin is 43.
My training consist of indoor and outdoor workouts. I do hiking when I have time off work.
I use Zwift:
One hour of zone 2, intervals at or slightly above threshold 80 minutes and tempo (medium/high intensity) 80-120 minutes. I also go on two outdoors group road rides of 4-5 hours (split over two days).
My FTP is detected at 109 or 2.26 w/kg. I get 150watts but not able to sustain for more than seconds. I try to do 40 minutes of treadmill run at or above my threshold which is currently 167 for running. When I get chance I try to do my run outdoors( mostly jogging) definitely not a runner.
That sounds like a lot of intensity. I’m 50, and I do 2 hard days a week, typically some sort of solo interval session depending on where I’m at in the season, and then a hard group ride of about 2.5 hours. So 3-3.5 hours where some of that is intensity. Then I’m doing 10-12 hours Z2 or lower on top of that.
The only person I coach is myself. I’m a pretty good rider for my age. So with that caveat it seems like you are doing too much intensity. If you haven’t been doing any de-loading, you may just be overtrained. I’d think about doing 2-3 weeks all Z1-2, and then see how you feel. If you haven’t taken any time off, maybe even take M-F off entirely.
This will be a useful test, and you may be surprised what some rest could do.
Wow that’s impressive hours of training. Lots of zone 2 which I am starting to experiment with this zone and finding it hard to stick to it, but getting there.
I am intending to take few days off next week, I feel that I need it! Looking forward to increasing zone 2 training and keeping intensity to 3 times per week as you suggested and see how I go
Don’t want to hijack the OP, so hopefully this is related to overtraining…
One of the few things I miss from Golden Cheetah is that it divided fatigue into Long and Short term. I found that very useful. If you’ve ridden long enough, you know the feeling in your legs when there is long term fatigue in the ‘background’. So, after multiple hard days, you take a break for 1-3 days and all is apparently well, but its not really! Does intervals split fatigue up? If so, how/where? Thanks.
You’re welcome! I’m reliving my racing days of youth now that I have more time to train again.
It can be hard to spend time just in zone 2! But you can play around with that a bit if you find it mentally challenging (eg, boring ). Do 10 minutes at the low end of Z2, and then 5 minutes at the high end, and do “intervals” there. Throw in some 10 second sprints every 10 minutes. If you are short on time do a shorter ride at the high end, and when you have more time dial it back towards the lower end.
Personally, I’ve gotten really fond of just getting out there, throwing on bicycle training podcasts, and putting in the hours. You’d be surprised how much you can ride and not get burned out.
Can you look at your ramp rate to help with long term fatigue? Have you just been slowly upping the volume and that’s what is doing it?
IMO intervals are simply a way to allow you to get more volume/make it easier to do the same volume of a given intensity within the day. It’s both mentally and physically easier to do 4x10 at 90% FTP than 40 minutes at 90% FTP or to do 5x9 and get slightly more volume. And the harder the effort, the more breaking it up works for me. Fatigue-wise, I’m not sure it makes any difference, and I don’t treat it differently in terms of recovery.
I now realise, specially after the replies I’ve received here which is so helpful that I should focus on my power not only heart rate.
I tend to keep my cadence low 65-100 rpm. I prefer climbing to sprinting.
I hate high cadence, but my legs are suffering at the moment, so today I did a short intervals of 30 minutes (two sets of 7x1 minute intervals) cadence aim of 110 rpm and power of 125 (zwift sets these variables based on my detected 20 minutes FTP of 109).
It was tough and still my heart rate barely made it to 169bpm. I am happy with the power, it is increasing slowly which is a reason for me to show off a little☺️ after all it was hard work.
However, with a little rest I still have plenty of energy to ride more but not at this intensity.
Here are some snapshots of today’s short workout: first two images from Garmin rest from Zwift
Subject: Improving Cadence and VO2 Through Speed Work
Hello G_E,
Thank you for sharing the information. As I suspected, your cadence appears to be on the lower side, which may be limiting your performance.
Here are a few suggestions to help enhance both your leg speed and VO2:
Forget About Heart Rate on Short Intervals
During shorter intervals, heart rate isn’t as important. Instead, focus primarily on your cadence and leg speed.
Leg Speed Drills
Incorporating short intervals designed to boost cadence can significantly improve your neuromuscular pathways and muscle fiber activation. The goal is to push your cadence up to 140 rpm, which I understand is quite fast, but this will train your body for better leg speed, even if you rarely hit that number during regular rides.
Address Gear Grinding
As you mentioned that you tend to “grind” gears, this may be a factor holding back your explosive power. Speedwork drills will help address this by encouraging faster leg movements.
Here’s a short workout I suggest you try, but be sure to take 1-2 easy days before attempting this, so you’re fresh:
5-10 min @ 60-40% intensity, starting at 100 rpm and easing down to 85 rpm
Important Notes:
The key here is to spin your legs as fast as possible before switching gears. This will prevent the tendency to grind the gears at a lower rpm, allowing you to reach a higher cadence.
For these sessions, try not to focus on your heart rate. I recommend hiding your HR from the display entirely to keep the emphasis on cadence.
Perform this session twice a week at most, and continue focusing on leg speed. Over time, you should see improvements not only in your cadence but also in your climbing ability.
Let me know how it goes—I’m confident this will make a difference.
is this correct? If so, what do I need to change to get into VO2 max training effect?
, don’t get me wrong, but they can’t have the latest takes on fitness and training. I never thought I would become a fan of podcasts or YouTube videos for starters, but there you have it. Hearing and listening to the days experts work their way through new and old data keeps the concepts fresh in my mind. Reviewing pertinent studies are also valuable…
