Training Plan Review

[Gerald]

On the VO2 efforts, the effort is not a single maximum effort, but a maximum effort you can do across all intervals. This is similar for AC power workouts too. NP is all out, but can be done in different ways, eg. Standing starts (low cadence, high torque in say 53-14 gear).

The best way to learn how high max is, would be to go too hard, eg. 115% and then make notes that 115% is too hard. Next time try something lower. But it also depends on how one feels on the day, as 115% could be 118% on another day.

I’ve worked with 2 coaches in my cycling life, and they believed that VO2, and above, is all max efforts that you can achieve across the number of intervals. There are a number of podcasts too where it’s also mentioned, of which 5x5 is the one mentioned as being “bang for your buck”.

WKO5’s iLevels also suggests an interval duration of: range of power, number of repeats and the work:rest ratio. That is all based on the athletes PDC being kept updated. I’ve yet to average higher than the upper limit of the power range.

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As for the Load/FTP question, it seems you understand that load is the same value when doing the same duration. However, when doing threshold work, you can do 4x8m intervals at 90%, 94%, 98% and 102%. It’s all level 4 (zone 4) but will give a different load for the same duration. That’s why it’s an option of adding another interval (extend the power you can hold), or higher intensity (for the same duration).

It all depends on the response to the training. If you can easily hold 100-105% for 4x8, I would ask you to do another interval for progression. At 5x8, or even 6x8, I’d bump up your power and start at 3x8. FTP is not a magical number that remains static, so one day you could be struggling to hold 95% and other days you mail 105%.

[Ben]

VO2

Amazing, this is what I’ve been doing the last year so glad my original research was right. Can completely bury myself on a last set and not have to worry if I went to hard (and certainly not too low).

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Load/FTP

Think my question here has not been expressed well, and it really is quite meaningless really.

If we stick with the Gorby.

Week 1
FTP - 360
Workout - 5x 5min @ 396W
Load - 81

For Week 2 my planned progression was +10w. But between 1 and 2, I do an FTP test and my FTP goes up 10w too. Then I end up with the same load and fitness (even though my actual fitness has gone up)

Week 2
FTP - 370
Workout - 5x 5min @ 407W
Load - 81

(Obviously won’t normally go up in direct proportion in real life but to some extent you will get this)

It’s a real trivial point but I feel sometimes I don’t do FTP tests frequently enough because I don’t want my number to change so I can see my fitness chart go up. Hopefully having a plan will help me focus on the actual objectives and true fitness rather than the fitness metric.

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Thanks again

[Gerald]

Also, if you’re supposed to do 5x5m and only manage 4.5x5m it’s also not a problem. In the words of Dr Andy Coggan… “if that’s all you can do, then that’s all you can do”.

[Steve_Harris]

And… “If it feels hard, it IS hard”

[Michael_Webber]

@Ben

How to do structured training outdoors?

• It all depends on how the terrain and traffic-free the area you’d train in. Nothing worse than having to slow down in the middle of an interval.
  • This is probably something I just need to play with with my wahoo. Wasn’t sure if by designing a workout for outdoors it dictates when you have to do it on the road rather than aligning them with flat sections or a long climb etc.

If you put a planned workout on wahoo, you can pause the workout until you get to an appropriate section of road; the wahoo keeps recording the ride. Then you can tell the head unit to progress to the interval when you are at the right point on the road.

[Michael_Webber]

@Ben

How do you increase load/fitness if you’re also increasing FTP?

• No short answer. When it comes to FTP, you can increase power and keep the interval durations/sets the same, or keep power the same and extend the time you can hold it (TTE). As long as you know how long you want to hold the power for, you progressively add more power, eg. If you can do 4x10m at 340W, then next time try 350W, then 360W. That’s the progression.
  • I more meant the metrics of load (and thus fitness). Since load is a function of FTP, if this rises then even though you’re doing more power on your rides than previously you will have a similar load. Something I’ve wondered for a while. I don’t change my FTP settign enough at the minute but with regular tests in the plan it could popup.

Ben, as you say, TSS will be more or less constant under the assumed conditions. That’s fine. TSS is measuring the load on your body – work relative to capacity. FTP going up and TSS constant is a measure of progress, isn;t it?

But if you measure load as the total amount of work you do, then total kJ is an appropriate way for you to assess increases.

[Gerald]

The lap button on Garmin works well for my athletes that do outdoor rides, providing they tell me about it.

I’ll then plan a longer recover period, and ask them to press the lap button. This then skips to a 10s interval to get them ready for the work interval.

Hills repeats work well in this scenario.

[ScaryWom]

How does using the lap button differ to using the pause button? Is data lost whilst being paused? Sorry probably a stupid question.

[Gerald]

Firstly, I don’t know how every device works, so I’m unaware what is possible across all devices, in terms of being able to pause a workout but still record data.

Secondly, there’s a minor difference when data is not recorded; a difference in average and normalised power, average HR as well as other metrics using these data fields. But note that is is minor.

For me, it’s about getting athletes into a disciplined way of structuring the workout. Let them know what an expected, and why.

For hill repeats, the “up part” is what counts and needs to be mostly under control. The speed will also be much slower than coming down. 5 minutes up, turnaround and coast down. If the rest/recovery interval is also 5 minutes but they get back in 4m30s on one lap and 5m12s on another, then a fixed time wouldn’t help. I’d make the rest interval on the workout show 6m, and ask them to start as close to 5m as they can. Again, the work they do going up the hill is what needs to be controlled.

[MedTechCD]

For most units, a lap button is simply a marker in the continuous data stream to identify a specific point, like the beginning of an interval, climb, elapsed time…
The Pause button stops recording the continuous data stream, leaving the activity file open to continu recording at a later point in time and keep everything in one single activity.
You need to be aware that there are a number of metrics that will be influenced by the Pause button. Any metric that includes a rolling average or a recovery function will be incorrect if you use Pause because there is an interruption in the data stream. W’, HRV-RR, NP for instance will no longer be correct. I know that a lot of people use the Auto-Pause function and they do it just to have a better average speed at the end and exclude traffic sign stops. But it causes the above metrics to be incorrect. It’s better to turn off Auto-Pause and judge “Avg Moving Speed” if that’s what you’re interested in.
For longer stops (more then about 5-10min), you can push it manually, although I suggest pausing only a minute or 2 after the actual stop. That will significantly reduce the anomalies in parameters which are dependent of what happens after certain events.

[ScaryWom]

@MedTechCD

you can push it manually, although I suggest pausing only a minute or 2 after the actual stop.

Thank you, this is most helpful.

[Michael_Webber]

@ScaryWom

Is data lost whilst being paused?

On an Elemnt Bolt, no: it records the whole ride. All that is paused is the progress of the workout plan.

[MedTechCD]

Can´t speak for Bolt but on Garmin Edge, pause stops recording. You can resume and everything is in the same Fit file, but you end up with gaps in the recording.
Think it´s important to know how your Head unit or watch reacts on those buttons.

[Lukasz_Pludowski]

Bolts workoouts are much more clever than Garmin. Planned workout is just a layer on top of the ride and you can manipulate it as you wish: rewinding, pausing, repeating interval without distrupting the recorded in the background ride is very easy. Garmin is much more primitive, next steps are just next points in your workout and you can’t manipulate them at all.

[Alan_Campbell]

Just found this thread as I’m looking for a fresh training plan for the winter ahead. As it happens I’ve a cycling trip to Mallorca planned for mid-April ‘24 and I’ll be having another crack at Sa Calobra to see if I can beat my PB of a few years ago.

A lot of the Zwift work outs and plans are a bit over complicated whereas your plan focuses on the important threshold and base load work.

I’ve reverted to (mostly) indoor workouts. This year was my first year doing outdoor workouts to power. Hitting traffic was my biggest challenge as I’d do the workouts on the commute to/from work so get a bit of town traffic. Also I’m running a Garmin Edge which as others have said is rather primitive as whilst it does allow an interval to be paused it doesn’t allow you to keep cycling and record the distance etc nor can you redo an interval if it does get spoiled by traffic etc.

Did you build your plan into intervals.icu?

Great power numbers by the way! Did you get your record sub 35?

[Lukasz_Pludowski]

You have a target (your climb) and a date. Now you want to plan backwards from that date.
Something like:

1 wk easier, 3wk vo2max,
1 wk recovery, 3wk z4 block
1wk reco, 3wk tempo
2x 1wk reco, 3wk z2

So firstly you want to plan your months and then fill them with intervals with gradually increased difficulty (if they are planned correctly the difficulty of the 2x10m at the beginning of the block will be same or very similar to 3x30m or so at the end of the block, ofc depends on your training history)

You want to increase your your tss gradually and with time decrease it a bit and icrease intensity (z2 into tempo into z4 intervals into vo2max).

You can check the distance of your climb and more or less predict if you want to ride it in tempo (>1h), z4 (<1h) etc. so during tempo block you can build your intervals up to that duration (2x20m, 3x15m, 2x25, 3x20 etc.) and then with z4/vo2max block you increase your ftp meaning that tempo duration will be maintained but will be performed at higher power.

I would treat all commutes just as z2 or recovery rides, meaning try to keep constant pressure and avoid acceleration and stops but most importantly stay safe.

google annual training plan wko on yt (3 parts) will help your greatly with palnning. But it needed to be watched several times probably.
here it is:

WKO5 and the Annual Training Process, Part 1: Early Base Extensive Aerobic Development

PS. for intervals (if you planned your workouts knowing what to do with proper periosdisation) you can use just your edge and a lap buton with a timer (you want to see lap time, power, lap power, hr) and that is all you need bc your intervals will be very simple like 2x10 or so. (those complicated on zwift are meant to be interesting for indoor workouts but they have little to none training sense)

redo an interval if it does get spoiled by traffic

relax a little, the magic is not in the intervals, they are here only to simulate the race condition like 1min intervals for gap closing etc. When prepering for a climb you want to collect time in zone so if one interval is shorter and you had to hit a lap button, you can jsut remeber to add those minutes to the intervals left so at the end you still have for example 60min in tempo in thet session and you are gucci

[Ben]

Hey,

I got covid and had to take a good few weeks off but otherwise the plan worked pretty well.

Managed 33mins in the end, I’m going to have a lot on this winter/spring so may have to forgo a lot of training but the following year I’ll target sub 30 and use this plan as the skeleton again.

[Alan_Campbell]

Thanks for the info @Lukasz_Pludowski.

As for commutes, my commute is mostly in the countryside for about 40 mins and the final 20 minutes in town so I can get a nice amount of time where I can do my efforts, and add on time at the end if needed. I find it really beneficial and a time saver by combining the workouts with my commute.

And thanks for the video. Really useful

[eric_schmidt]

@Ben

N.B. for the workouts in the velonews and welovecycling articles I (&Chris Starkey) recreated the workouts in Intervals and made them public if anyone is interested.

I am new to intervals - where can I find the workouts please? Thank-You!

[MedTechCD]

Click on the ‘Library’ icon on the calendar and then on the looking Glass Plan icon

Now select Workout Folders